This adds Jeffrey Azoff's artists Harry Styles and Meghan Trainor, and Creed's artists Mark Ronson, Troye Sivan, and Sara Bareilles to the new firm. Her imagination and style in designing and developing the Forum to be the ultimate artist-friendly arena has set the standard that all other venues strive to emulate.In 2011, Shelli and her husband, Irving, were the first couple honored with the Spirit of Life Award, saluting those that exemplify the ideals and values that guide City of Hope, a leading research, treatment and education center for cancer, diabetes and other life-threatening diseases. Ray Waddell, Nashville and Andrew Flanagan, New York, University of Illinois at UrbanaChampaign, "Live Nation Chairman Azoff Said to Exit Concert Company", "Houses of the Holy: Where the Music Biz Celebrates the Jewish High Holidays", "The New Pioneers: Irving Azoff on His Plan to Deal With the 'StubHub Factor' -- 'You Have Lots of People Escaping With Lots of Money', "AZOFF QUITS AS CHAIRMAN OF MCA'S MUSIC UNIT", "New Venture Seeks Higher Royalties for Songwriters", "Irving Azoff and Madison Square Garden Co. Plus loads of contact information to aid you in promoting your music career, DIY style: T-shirt and CD development, blog sites and social media tools. The first client Azoff lost was Minnie Riperton in 1979, to breast cancer when she was only 31. The singer and No Doubt recently parted ways with Jim Guerinot 's Rebel Waltz Management, their manager since 1998. Irving Azoff (/ezf/; born December 12, 1947) is an American entertainment executive and chairman of Full Stop Management, which represents recording artists. The new performing rights organization, Global Music Rights, is growing in prominence.It is part of Azoff MSG Entertainment, which is a partnership between Madison Square Garden Company and Irving Azoff's Azoff Music Management. The formal rollout of Giant Music came to light in a recent Instagram post from. Los Angeles. Without Irving, Id still be in Chicago.. Several acts (and AGP's touring director "Steve Wood") joined Geary in the re-formation of Global Artist Management in Century City LA. Purchases of key products and services provides insight into whether a business is growing or declining financially. Azoff MSG Entertainment (AMSGE), the joint venture between Azoff Music Management and the Madison Square Garden Company, has purchased a 50 percent stake in celebrity and music procurement firm . I ask if, in the age of the viral hit and the bedroom producer, he finds himself running into more artists who assume they dont need a manager. With that backing, Azoff MSG Entertainment plans to focus on a few key areas: >>Music management, where Azoff boasts a roster that also includes Lindsey Buckingham and Steely Dan. (business & personal). In photos from the 70s when he was considerably less professorial in comportment, a hipster exec with a spring-loaded middle finger he sports a beard and a helmet of curly hair and mischievous eyes behind his shades, and looks a little like a Muppet who might scream at Kermit over Dr. Teeths appearance fee. (That was us, Azoff says, somewhat grandly. Given Full Stops strength in the touring business they manage Harry Styles, who has been on a wildly successful global tour for nearly a year it seems likely that was a factor in the Azoffs favor, along with the companys close relationship with longtime tour promoters Live Nation. I called John up and said, OK, get your ass out here. The vibe would be horrible, and production costs will stay the same.. Try for free at rocketreach.co Azoff MSG Entertainment, LLC Email Format | azoffmusic.com Emails Toggle navigation 1100 Glendon Avenue. Moody's Analytics makes no representations or warranties regarding, and assumes no responsibility for, the accuracy, completeness, or currency of the information contained herein. Not the Susan Markheim you were looking for? Azoff recalls another big client. AZOFF is Chairman and Founder of AZOFF MUSIC MANAGEMENT GROUP. But my dad has always loved his job so much. Souther famously put it, Irvings 15% of everybody turned out to be more than everyones 85% of themselves.) Everything hes doing now building clout through the Azoff Co., even accepting the Hall of Fame honor is ultimately about positioning himself to better fight these fights. Harry Styles took home the major tour of the year award for the second year . P. Taylor, Amazon. The Azoff Company, founded in 2018, is a privately held media and entertainment company dedicated to investing in positively disruptive businesses that put artists and fans first. Music, as a commodity, is more important than its ever been, and more unfairly monetized for the creators. [4] In 1972, Azoff headed to Los Angeles with Fogelberg. Maybe we should leave him there for a while.. OK? A lot of people could have made a dynasty on the people we used to manage, Azoff says, let alone the ones we kept.. When the team qualified for the 1990 World Cup, she was a major proponent on the players behalf. I am extremely proud that my partner, Jim Dolan, and I built an innovative company which always put the artists and songwriters interests first, said Mr. Azoff, chairman and chief executive officer, The Azoff Company. She always talks about how lucky and grateful she is for all that she has. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. I have many of the artists we represent booked in the Forum, waiting for the restart based on COVID., The holdings of the Azoff Co. formed when Dolan sold his interest in Azoff MSG back to Azoff two years ago include Full Stop, the performance-rights organization Global Music Rights and the Oak View Group, which is developing arenas in Seattle and Belmont, N.Y., and a 15,000-seat venue on the University of Texas campus in Austin. Once the transaction is complete, the company will be called The Azoff Company. Irving and his wife Shelli own houses all over, from Beverly Hills to Cabo San Lucas, but right now in the last week of October its too cold at the ranch in Idaho and too hot at the spread in La Quinta, so hes renting this place a modest midcentury six-bedroom that sold for $5 million back in 2016. Front Line was created through the combination of Azoff Music Management and Howard Kaufman Management, two of the leading . In 2012, he topped Billboard Magazine's Power 100, being named the most powerful person in the music industry. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet consectetur adipisicing elit. Laura Snapes. Azoff made himself a reputation as having an ends-justifies-the-means attitude in promoting the Eagles, and he was very loyal to the band. 2,083 Followers, 2,275 Following, 1,029 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from SB Music Management (@sbmusicmanagement) Azoffmusic Management 1100 Glendon Avenue # 2000 Los Angeles, CA 90024 (310) 209-3100 Visit Website Get Directions Similar Businesses Detailed Information Location Typeunknown Year Established1995 Annual Revenue Estimate3337248 SIC Code show Employees20 Contactsshow Is this your listing? Why? Across America, smaller cities and less-populated states are offering cash and perks to lure remote workers away from big metropolitan areas. U2 is joining forces with Irving and Jeffrey Azoffs Full Stop Management after nearly 10 years with Madonna and Red Hot Chili Peppers manager Guy Oseary, sources tell Variety. Azoff MSG Entertainment, LLC Entertainment Providers Follow View all 23 employees About us Premiere music management and entertainment company, originally established in the 1970s, located in. Producer of music albums and television series. Getty Images. Even Harry Styles' manager, Jeffrey Azoff, the son of Irving Azoff, chairman of Full Stop Management, a management team representing several famous recording artists is very well connected within the industry. Irving Azoff is a manager, and works at The Azoff Company. I contend that what keeps us all young is staying in the business, says Azoff. Joe said yes. Based in Los Angeles, The Azoff Company is led by industry veteran, Irving Azoff, and has a portfolio that includes Fullstop Management, one of the world's leading music management. Azoff's other clients include the Eagles, Christina Aguilera, Steely Dan, Van. When the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inducted the Eagles in 1998, Don Henley stood onstage and said of Azoff, He may be Satan, but hes our Satan.. AZOFF MUSIC MANAGEMENT LLC is in the sectors of: Performance. Fallon and Kimmel, all these virtual performances people are sick of that, he says. It makes perfect Azoffian sense profane trash talk on the record, tenderness on background. Suite 2000 And then of course, none of them pay fair market value and they get away with it. /PRNewswire/ -- Azoff Music Management has announced an investment in social media marketing and online talent management agency Digital Brand Architects (DBA). Irving Azoff's music management company has agreed a deal whereby it will buy out the 50% stake held by The Madison Square Garden Company (MSG) in joint venture Azoff MSG Entertainment. He is now Executive Chairman of LIVE NATION ENTERTAINMENT. Fogelberg, to cancer, four years later. Steely Dan co-founder Walter Becker said theyd hired Azoff because he impressed us with his taste for the jugular and his bizarre spirit. Jimmy Buffetts wife grabbed him outside a show at Madison Square Garden, pushed him into the back of a limo and said, You have to manage Jimmy, although Buffett already had a manager at the time. Not the Irving Azoff you were looking for? [18][19], In January 2020, Azoff was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as an Ahmet Ertegun Award winner. Youre an old man. The Azoff Company is proud to renew our commitment to the Forum and MSGs transformative vision for the best possible, live entertainment experience., Irving has been a valued business partner and we know that he will continue to enjoy incredible success in his company and in his continued role with us. Its one of my favorite things hes ever said to me. I ask Azoff if he can tell me a story that sums up what kind of guy Eddie Van Halen was; he tells me a beautiful one, then says hed prefer not to see it in print. (As the singer-songwriter and Azoff client J.D. Id rather work on [these things] than anything else, he says. 11:29 a.m. Nov. 6, 2020: An earlier version of this post said Irving Azoff and Jon Landau are the first living managers inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He is a most trustworthy person. Los Angeles, CA 90024. Were involved in his touring as an advisor to Live Nation, but hes calling his own shots these days.. Azoff was good at bringing that in, too. To connect with AZOFF MUSIC MANAGEMENT LLC's employee register on Signalhire, Get the email address format for anyone with our FREE extension. Mr. [17], In 2019, Azoff and his wife Shelli purchased The Apple Pan, one of Los Angeles' oldest continuing operating restaurants. The Azoff Restaurant Group began in 2019 when entertainment powerhouses Shelli and Irving Azoff learned that the landmark Beverly Hills restaurant Nate n Als Delicatessen planned to close its doors after 70 years of service. [21][22] A settlement was reached in 2022. You'll also get access to: Los Angeles, They stepped in to ensure that these iconic restaurants live on and continue to serve generations to come. Trailed by Larry Solters, the Eagles preternaturally dour minister of information, Azoff makes his way down the hill from the house for dinner at the golf clubs restaurant. He knows of at least six companies trying to monetize new concert-esque experiences pay-per-view shows from houses and soundstages, drive-in events and so on. Los Angeles, CA 90024, Front Line Management (1974-1980; 1994-present). All Rights Reserved. Lorem ipsum dolor sit, amet consectetur adipisicing elit. The company is based in Los Angeles and has a portfolio that includes Full Stop Management, one of the worlds leading music management companies; Global Music Rights, a performance rights company transforming that space in favor of its songwriter clients; Oak View Group, a company focused on the sports and entertainment venue industry; and Lane One, a premium experience company. [6], According to Thomas R. King's book The Operator (2001), David Geffen manipulated Azoff into leaving MCA and going to Warner Music Group, where Azoff started Giant Records. LOS ANGELES (VIP NEWS) Guns N Roses and its frontman Axl Rose will now be represented by longtime managers Irving Azoff and Andy Gould, according to a statement from Rose on the bands Web site. An earlier version of this post said Irving Azoff and Jon Landau are the first living managers inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Henley and I are having a race, he says. In 1973, when a mix-up happened at an airport and there were no limos to pick up the band, Roberts asked Azoff to take the call and deal with Glenn Frey complaining about it rather heatedly, to put it mildly. Hell call me up and hell go, I really feel s today. And I say, Well, you should, Grandpa. What are you gonna do, Azoff says, take an act that used to sell 15,000 seats and tell them to play to 4,000 in the [same] arena? Is this a f golf tour?. Goes Out newsletter, with the week's best events, to help you explore and experience our city. He didnt seem to care if people liked him, and his artists loved him for that. United States. CA She was instrumental in helping soccer become what it is in America today. Discover other companies in the same industry you can sell to: The information contained in this company profile is compiled from third party sources, including but not limited to public records, user submissions, and other commercially available data sources. In the mid-1980s, he brought success to MCA Records . Can we bridge our cultural divide? If you cant figure it out, youre not my son., Direct quote, Jeffrey says. He cheerfully admits that he and his partners at Full Stop are obviously, as a management business, kind of losing our ass this year due to COVID-19. Azoff MSG Entertainment, LLC Email Format. But are these incentives worth packing a moving van? [8], Azoff co-produced the movies Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Urban Cowboy, Jack Frost, Above The Rim, and The Inkwell, and was executive producer of The Hurricane. Theres no way that doesnt rub off on you., The younger Azoff got his first industry job at 21, as a glorified intern working for Maroon 5s then-manager Jordan Feldstein. The Azoffs, who themselves and their children had grown up frequenting both restaurants, knew that they could not sit by and let such beloved pieces of LA history disappear. Mrs. Azoff was the driving force behind the $150 million 2013 remodel of the iconic Los Angeles venue, the Fabulous Forum, which she went on to run for several years. Up to 5 We collaborate with the artists, the promoters, the athletes and the fans who experience our venues. Operator of a music management and entertainment company. As it stands Azoff is hearing encouraging things about treatments and vaccines and new testing machines, and is reasonably confident that technology will soon make it possible for certified-COVID-free fans to again enjoy carefree evenings of live music together; he doesnt expect much to happen in the meantime. A rep for Full Stop had no comment; the news was first reported by Hits. Want to contact Irving Azoff? Many of Harry's fans are hoping that Harry and One Direction can break free of Simon Cowell and their current . 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Says he was never happy, even after Azoff and his people got him everything on his wish list. Location Type: Headquarters . New Management Team For Guns N' Roses. [20], In 2018, Radio Music License Committee made antitrust claims against Azoff's Global Music Rights, LLC, a performance rights organization. And then Glenn, says Azoff, referring to the Eagles co-founder who died in 2016. Questions Post Question There are no questions yet for this company. Every single I mean, every single rock star I know is basically doing it to try and stay young. Azoff could tell they were unhappy with Roberts' attitude, their treatment, and the direction of their band. People are going, Theyre going to tear it down theyre not going to tear it down, Azoff says. [7] Geffen convinced Mo Ostin at Warner Music to offer Irving Azoff a "dream" label deal. They are the first active managers so honored. My mom, Shelli Azoff, managed players from the U.S. Soccer Team and had an integral part in the rebuild of the LA Forum and my dad, Irving Azoff, is an music and entertainment legend managing. Instagram Website. If you are in the industry, this is a must read!!.". Mr. Azoff holds the title of Chairman and CEO of The Azoff Company and is the personal manager of the legendary Eagles, who he has managed since 1974, Jon Bon Jovi, Gwen Stefani, Harry Styles, Christina Aguilera, John Mayer, Journey, Van Halen, entertainer Chelsea Handler, and many others. Beatles manager Brian Epstein and Rolling Stones manager Andrew Loog Oldham are already in, but Azoff and Landau are the first active managers thus honored. The band has not released a new album since Songs of Experience in December of 2017. Description. We could do anything we wanted, so we did. These people, when they start out whether its Facebook, Snapchat, TikTok, whatever they resist paying for music until you go beat the f out of them. Does Don plan to keep going, I ask, until the wheels fall off? Helena Christensen U2 is joining forces with Irving and Jeffrey Azoff's Full Stop Management after nearly 10 years with Madonna and Red Hot Chili Peppers manager Guy Oseary, sources tell. And thats what creates an opportunity for people like me., AZOFFS FIRM NO longer handles Travis Scott, by the way. AZOFF MUSIC MANAGEMENT 1100 Glendon Ave., Ste. [9] He has been named "Manager of the Year" by two touring industry trade publications. Just figure it out.. David Crosby has sold the recorded music and publishing rights to his entire music catalogue - including the works of the Byrds, Crosby & Nash, Crosby Stills and Nash, and Crosby . You ready to throw in the towel? In 2017, Azoff's company, Full Stop, merged with The Creed Co, run by Brandon Creed, with the two becoming business partners. The Azoff Company, preceded by Azoff Music MSG Entertainment since 2013, is a privately-held media and entertainment company "dedicated to investing in positively disruptive businesses that put artists and fans first." . Based in Los Angeles, The Azoff Company is led by industry veteran, Irving Azoff, and has a portfolio that includes Fullstop Management, one of the worlds leading music management companies; Global Music Rights, a performance rights company transforming that space in favor of its songwriter clients; Oak View Group, a company focused on the sports and entertainment venue industry; and LaneOne, a premium experience company. Frontline Management is one of the world's largest music management companies, providing representation to musical acts such as the Eagles, Van Halen, Christina Aguilera, Jimmy Buffett, Lenny Kravitz and Aerosmith. Eighty-six. Sign in to see who you already know at AZOFF MUSIC MANAGEMENT LLC [14] Azoff serves on the boards of iHeartCommunications, Inc. and Starz LLC. Goodbye.. Every entry is cross-referenced and cross-linked. Azoff's father is music entertainment executive Irving Azoff, who was named Billboard's most powerful person in the music industry in 2012. I miss Glenn a lot. In February 2018, MSG announced its plans for MSG Sphere, state-of-the-art venues that are being built to pioneer the next generation of immersive experiences. Ownership: Private, Year Founded: 2015 John Entwistles dead. I mean, you have no idea. Since September 2013, he has been chairman and CEO of Azoff MSG Entertainment, a venture with The Madison Square Garden Company. The Eagles were the first act handled by Front Line from its inception in 1974. Despite the apocalyptic parking scenario that looms for the area two stadiums and a concert arena on a one-mile stretch of South Prairie Boulevard Azoff is confident that the Forum will live on as a live-music venue. So weve kinda been turning that stuff down to just wait it out., In the meantime, he says, Full Stop is picking up new clients during the pandemic. I want to be csucker of the year. In 2019, Minaj hired Azoff as her new manager. Nicki Minaj split from manager Irving Azoff and is eyeing Wassim "Sal" Slaiby's SALXCO, home to the Weeknd and Doja Cat, for representation. Nicki Minaj's Email Address. John told that story to [Apple senior vice president] Eddy Cue on the golf course three days ago. But if I didnt have the power base in the management business, I couldnt be effective.. Azoff MSG Entertainment, LLC uses 4 email formats: 1. first '.' last@azoffmusic.com (72.5%). [10], In 2015, Azoff played a thinly veiled version of himself in the Documentary Now! Suite 2000. Contact this Company This company is located in the Pacific Time Zone and the office is currently Closed Get a Free Quote from Azoff Music Management and other companies Azoff Music Management Nope? More importantly, the house is literally across the street from the Pebble Beach Golf Links, where Azoff likes to play with his college buddy John Baruck, who started out in the music business around the same time Azoff did, in the late 60s, and just retired after managing Journey through 20 years and two or three lead singers, depending how you count. free lookups / month. Previously the head of Irving Azoff's Iconic Artists Group, Chastan founded Iconoclast in 2021 and has been quietly acquiring assets large and small, powered by the heft of institutional backing . Irving Azoff has officially launched his Giant Music record label, which was first announced in early 2021. 1100 Glendon Avenue . As with everything else Shelli does, she curated a memorable and creative evening raising a record amount of money that people still talk about. Azoff describes himself as increasingly focused on diversification, and building assets for the family that arent just dependent on commissions, shall we say., But as both a manager and a co-founder of a lobbying group, the Music Artists Coalition, hes also devoting more time and energy to a broad range of artists-rights issues, from health insurance to royalty rates to copyright reversion to this years Assembly Bill 5, which threatened musicians independent-contractor status until it was amended in September. But in recent times, not so much. ABOUT. Operator of a music management and entertainment company. I sent him an email back that said, Lucky for me, you need me more than I need you. Azoffmusic Management is an unclaimed page. In 2012, Irving was named the most powerful person in the music industry. Hes only 5 feet, 3 inches, a diminutive Sydney Pollack in jeans and a zip-up sweater. The Company serves customers in the State of California. But he still works with many artists who joined him in the 70s with Henley, with Steely Dans Donald Fagen and with Joe Walsh. Azoffmusic Management Add An Image Profile: Musician, artists management agency established by Irving Azoff . It made him look to me, mortal. Writers dont get enough. According to Jeffrey, Irving responded, Listen carefully, because Im going to say this one time. In 2021, Iconic Artists Group acquired the catalogue of David Crosby and a majority stake in The Beach Boys' intellectual property. Announce $300 Million Joint Venture", "Irving Azoff to Serve as Chairman and CEO of Azoff MSG Entertainment LLC", "Tim Leiweke and Azoff MSG Entertainment Join Forces to Launch the Oak View Group (OVG)", "Oak View Group Taps Milan for First Arena Outside U.S", "David Crosby sells catalog to Irving Azoff's Iconic Artists Group, including recorded music and publishing rights", "The Apple Pan Has New Owners for the First Time in Decades", "Nate 'n Al's, beloved delicatessen of Beverly Hills, to close for now", "The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 2020 inductees are", Hollywood Docket: Music Industry Antitrust; Video Game Humvees; Paul Haggis DNA, Irving Azoffs GMR Faces a Serious Legal Setback Against U.S. Radio Stations, "Irving Azoff Group Strikes Deal With Radio Stations to End Legal Battle Over Performance Rights", "Inglewood Mayor Butts Slams Azoff MSG Entertainment Lawsuit", James Dolan and MSG are waging a war on Inglewood over new Clippers arena project, Lakers explored leaving Staples Center for return to Forum, emails reveal, Nicki Minaj Accuses Travis Scott Manager Irving Azoff of Smear Campaign Against Her Tour, "Irving Azoff Assures Nicki Minaj That Travis Scott Doesn't Hate Her: 'It's All Show Biz', David Segal: Calling Almost Everyone's Tune, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irving_Azoff&oldid=1133990363, Chairman and CEO of Azoff MSG Entertainment, This page was last edited on 16 January 2023, at 13:24. Also under the MSG umbrella is TAO Group, a world-class hospitality group with globally-recognized entertainment dining and nightlife brands: Tao, Marquee, Lavo, Avenue, The Stanton Social, Beauty & Essex and Vandal. [11], In October 2008, ticketing and marketing company Ticketmaster announced they would acquire the management company Front Line Management Group, Inc. As part of the deal, Azoff, who was founder and chief executive officer of Front Line, became chief executive officer of Ticketmaster and was named chairman of Live Nation in February 2011. Azoff Music Management will pay MSG $125 million for MSGs 50 percent interest in the joint venture. [5], From 1983 to 1989, Azoff was chairman of MCA Music Entertainment Group and is credited for turning around that label's fortunes. [24] During the summer of 2019, it was reported that Azoff was working with James L. Dolan of the Madison Square Garden Company to prevent the competing arena from being built similar to the tactics used to stop the construction of the proposed West Side Stadium in New York City in 2005. The music, media and entertainment company has been a leading force in the industry, creating new avenues and opportunities for artists and talent in an evolving marketplace. That imbalance long predates Big Techs involvement in the field, but the failure of music-driven tech companies to properly compensate musicians is clearly the largest burr under Azoffs saddle. Azoff says, I contend that what keeps us all young is staying in the business. Search over 700 Mr Allen hones in on the music business and even includes some GREAT information at the end of the book. In August 2018, Azoffs then-client Travis Scott released Astroworld, which debuted at No. Ever since, Azoff had been the manager of the Eagles. The Eagles lived life in the fast lane; he was the designated driver. Azoff music management boasts massive name clients like the Eagles, Christina Aguilera, Fleetwood Mac, and Bon Jovi. And I think it works. But hes not convinced anybody wants to sit in their parked car to watch a band play. Lane ; he was the designated driver tenderness on background [ 22 ] a settlement reached... Signalhire, get the Email address you cant figure it out, youre not son...., until the wheels fall off in 2012, he topped Billboard Magazine 's 100... Died in 2016 is staying in the mid-1980s, he brought success to MCA.! The first act handled by Front Line Management ( 1974-1980 ; 1994-present ) is basically doing it to try stay! Into whether a business is growing or declining financially are No questions yet for this Company 2000... Singer and No Doubt recently parted ways with Jim Guerinot & # ;. John told that story to [ Apple senior vice president ] Eddy Cue on the players behalf it perfect! 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Basically doing it to try and stay young record, tenderness on background of. % of themselves. comment ; the news was first announced in early 2021 thinly veiled version of in! Keep going, Theyre going to say this one time ipsum dolor sit, amet consectetur adipisicing elit in! Across America, smaller cities and less-populated states are offering cash and perks to lure remote workers from! Three days ago ( DBA ) '' label deal: 2015 John Entwistles dead and he was happy! Dan, Van of course, none of them pay fair market value and they away. Out, youre not my son., Direct quote, Jeffrey says and! Its ever been, and he was very loyal to the band has not a! In 2012, Irving was named the most powerful person in the Documentary now Van! Carefully, because Im going to tear it down Theyre not going to this... 125 million for MSGs 50 percent interest in the State of California could tell they were with... Offer Irving Azoff is a must read!!. & quot ; joint.. 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